The episode features a discussion with Dr. Benjamin Slotnick, founder and CEO of Lillianah Technologies, a carbon removal startup. Dr. Slotnick speaks about his educational background in geology, which led him to invest in environmental solutions.
Discussing his company, he outlines Lilianah's approach to carbon removal through the optimisation of oceanic biological pumps and bioremediation of 'dead zones' caused by excess chemical runoff.
He discusses the challenges startups face in the Carbon Dioxide Removal (CDR) industry, the need for Measurement, Reporting and Verification (MRV) of technologies and the importance of marine sediments as an effective carbon store.
Dr. Slotnick also expresses his belief in CDR as a crucial player in maintaining planetary stability. This is a powerful episode and one not to be missed.
Enjoy the show!
Contact Jake
Linkedin
Substack
Contact Dr Benjamin Slotnick
Linkedin
Lillianah Technologies
The episode features a discussion with Dr. Benjamin Slotnick, founder and CEO of Lillianah Technologies, a carbon removal startup. Dr. Slotnick speaks about his educational background in geology, which led him to invest in environmental solutions.
Discussing his company, he outlines Lilianah's approach to carbon removal through the optimisation of oceanic biological pumps and bioremediation of 'dead zones' caused by excess chemical runoff.
He discusses the challenges startups face in the Carbon Dioxide Removal (CDR) industry, the need for Measurement, Reporting and Verification (MRV) of technologies and the importance of marine sediments as an effective carbon store.
Dr. Slotnick also expresses his belief in CDR as a crucial player in maintaining planetary stability. This is a powerful episode and one not to be missed.
Enjoy the show!
Contact Jake
Linkedin
Substack
Contact Dr Benjamin Slotnick
Linkedin
Lillianah Technologies
Hello and welcome to The Seed. Our intention with this podcast is to illuminate the climate tech venture space, sharing the stories, the insights of the founders, pioneers, innovators, and investors who are shaping this space at this critical juncture. Through the stories we'll share, we'll provide insights, knowledge, as well as solace, reassurance, and hopefully community to those who are pushing the boundaries in the climate tech and sustainability space who are working so hard to make the. Well, the better place by building or investing in the very companies that are going to make the change we need to see. So if you enjoy what you hear, please do share this episode with a friend or leave us a review on whichever platform you're on so that others can also find our work. I'd love to hear from you. So please drop me a message at Jake at 7gen. vc if you want to continue the conversation with that, thank you for joining us and enjoy the show.
Track 1:Hello and welcome to another episode of the Seed, and today I am thrilled to welcome onto the show,
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:show,
Track 1:a founder that I've actually invested in, Dr. Benjamin Slotnik, who's the CEO and founder of Liliana. And Liliana are a carbon removal startup based down in the southeast
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:the south.
Track 1:of the United States offering out of Houston and, and Louisiana. And without any further ado, I wanna pass over to Ben to talk to us all about his story,
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:story,
Track 1:the challenges that he's facing as a startup in the CDR space when it comes to bringing novel technologies to market. And whether some of the MRV certification, verification infrastructure is there, able to support them in the way that I believe the climate crisis needs us to. So, Ben, welcome to the show.
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:to the show. Well, thank you, Jake, for having me, and it's a privilege to have you on our cap table. You've given us a lot of insight and I really like talking strategy with you in general, and so when you gave us the offer to come onto your podcast, it was a no brainer to say yes and say let's just. Let's do this. But to start, I think you mentioned really emphasized sort of my story and how I got to this place and why am I going all in on a carbon dioxide removal startup. And I think it goes back to my roots where I was born and raised in Silicon Valley in a family that really favored education over a lot of other factors. And so as I was going through school, my parents always got me to chase what I love, and that was. Geology. I ended up becoming the first geologist in my family, and when I went through school, including a master's and a PhD, I did all that just because it's something I'm passionate about. I love it. Picked up on all this subtle sort of. Elements you can focus on. But I didn't really know how that was gonna convert into a career or what a job would be. I just really was in the moment saying, this is something that we really need to know more about. How does the world function? What is climate? How does climate change? How can we learn from earth's past the rock record? What can we do from the modern ocean, et cetera? You know, after that I, I spent. You know, 8, 9, 7 years depending on how, what company and how you calculate how long someone's experience would be in oil and gas. And I utilized a lot of what I picked up on the academic side, really, carbon cycling. Where does carbon go? Where does carbon come from? How long does it take to go from reservoir to reservoir into sort of understanding from a professional perspective, why do we have different types of oil? Why are there different types of gas? And it's actually compared to the carbon dioxide removal industry, not that different. You know, carbon gets buried in marine sediments. Through time, those get deeper and deeper and they go through what's called higher thermal stress and they convert to oil and gas. That concept of carbon burial is literally the exact same thing that a lot of the CDR companies out there are also trying to chase today. And so when I picked up on the fact in, you know, 2021 or so that the CDR industry was really gaining steam. I really wanted to take part in it because I realized a lot of my education and training was much broader than what I was doing just in oil and gas. And so in applying for roles and realizing. Shortly thereafter, that the oceans were being overlooked. And for someone that understands how the climate works, the oceans are fundamental to everything. Not just carbon, but to temperature to having a habitable planet for humans to live on, et cetera. And if we don't have a system in place where oceans are core to a lot of our strategy CDR in particular, then in my view, it's gonna be more of a feel good scenario, and it worries me. And, and so that's really what got me to really want to get Liliana off the ground in the first place. If others are not doing it well, then who is? If it's not gonna be me? And I think that's probably a good way to kick off our podcast.
Track 1:Well, thank you. And do you wanna tell us then
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:us then
Track 1:about Liliana, what you do,
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:do,
Track 1:it's different, and why you believe it's gonna be successful in this kind of fight against climate change? I.
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:Yeah, for sure. I think a good way to emphasize, if you look at the intergovernmental panel on climate change and a lot of the reports that they've put out over the years, the oceans are really the largest carbon sink. Specifically the the biological pump. The solubility pump. And if you look at most of the technologies that are out there in the CDR industry, most of those don't get at the optimization of those two pumps in particular, if we look at the total amount of carbon that humans burn and release in the atmosphere through emissions every single year, which is say over 50 billion tons. The IPCC reports already say the oceans can 20 to 30%, up to 30% of that. That's a, that's a lot of carbon. And if you look at engineering solutions, and if you look at injection based strategies, we're nowhere close to that. We're looking at the tens of thousands or thousands of tons of carbon, hoping to get to a million tons of carbon on a technology by technology basis today. To me, that's getting lost in the weeds. And so we really want to focus our efforts and I think focus is really what that is. Liliana, what we do is we optimize those two particular pieces. We, we cultivate specific forms of phytoplankton that can remove nutrients faster and more efficiently to, to help remove, unwanted or excess nutrients that humans release into waterways unintentionally, no one expects ammonium or, or fertilizer runoff or sewage or pollution from cities to, to have impacts downstream. But they do. We can't get every compound onto the water from what it is that we do, given the fact we have a population of what, seven, 8 billion people on the planet? Not quite eight any yet, but, but that sort of gets to the point we're. really looking at it from a biological solution, and if you want to focus on the oceans, a good other point to emphasize is only three ways you can do it. You can do it physically by moving water either through currents or waves. You can do it chemically by augmenting what the composition of that water is. can do it biologically by optimizing what life is there. And many of the approaches that we have in this system come with it. Unexpected issues or concerns or risks, but we're really focused on the biological piece because of how our go-to market strategy is designed and developed. It gives us this differential in a way where if you're working in polluted waters. We work, you don't have that biodiversity risk that a lot of these other technologies that work in pristine parts of the ocean do. And I think that's a key element in terms of where, where we, we hope to be in about two or three, five years from now.
Track 1:So to recap, this is a biological
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:is a
Track 1:solution
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:solution
Track 1:that seeks to capture carbon. Whilst at the same time providing bioremediation, which I think is the word you use for it, insofar as it helps to rebalance the dead zones that are
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:that are
Track 1:prevalent and occur because of the eutrofication that comes IE,
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:IE,
Track 1:excess chemical runoff that comes from farming and kind of urban, urban settings, flushing through rivers, ending up in the open ocean, leading to those dead zones that I spoke to.
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:spoke to.
Track 1:So Liliana
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:Liliana
Track 1:that as well as capturing carbon in the process.
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:E. Exactly. And a good way that I like to highlight that is we're bringing the systems back to the way they should have been, had humans never been here. And so
Track 1:Yeah.
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:with the excess nutrients that humans put in the system, it gives a competitive advantage to certain forms of phytoplankton that lead to more oxygen consumption. And. the dead zones or a lot of the eutrofication that you're describing. And if we can get a lot of those communal structures, especially the vital plankton back to the way that they should have always been, then the whole system's gonna be healthier. And it just, another point of clarification that I think is good based on what I've learned so far is when we say biological solution, we really mean biological solution. I've noticed there's some ambiguity. Depending on what company you talk to, when they mean biological solution, they actually technically are putting a chemical or some kind of compound in the water to try to induce growth. That's not, in my view, biological, that's really chemical. Here at Liliana, we're releasing biological species of phytoplankton, and that's what a, a key point is of our strategy. And our technology because if you can release the healthy native forms in the areas that we operate, we have a much better understanding of what will push that system the way it should be. If you don't have a biological source of what it is that you're working with in that context, you run the risk of unexpectedly causing toxic or harmful or blooms or some other factor that that is not part of your game plan. And, and that's, that's something that concerns us and why we don't do that.
Track 1:So
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:So
Track 1:for explaining all of that, Ben.
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:that. Ben.
Track 1:And what I'd like us to do is to move on to not just the Liliana specific journey, but
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:but
Track 1:the reason I wanted
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:the
Track 1:you on this podcast is because I believe the journey that you are going through.
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:through is
Track 1:Is leading you through a number of the same obstacles that a large number of other CDR, so carbon dioxide removal startups are also facing,
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:facing,
Track 1:which is that you're developing novel technologies or you are using existing technologies, but applying them
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:them
Track 1:novel contexts. And
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:And
Track 1:some two sets of challenges there.
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:there.
Track 1:Number one is understanding the integrity of the process itself. So what we call MRV, you know, for those who aren't as familiar, measurement, reporting, and verification, IE, when Liana or any other carbon dioxide removal startup says we've removed a ton of carbon, have they actually removed that and has that carbon been removed for a lot, a sufficiently long period of time? IE is it just gonna pop up in a year's time again?
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:again?
Track 1:So that's the first challenge, is the internal kind of integrity. But then secondly, especially with biological solutions like yours, there is the question then of the external or ex outward, the ecological integrity of the process. IE
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:IE,
Track 1:there any of the unintended consequences that you mentioned there? You know, and we've seen this certainly with some of the solutions, certainly the chemical solutions as well. You know, if we release.
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:release, you know,
Track 1:into clouds and we make it rain. And what does that do? You know, are we creating acid rain? Can we really start doing this kind of
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:this kind
Track 1:as it's sometimes called, trying to change the Earth's atmosphere? And there's obviously huge risks there. You know, you, you, and you've seen that throughout human, you know, society and history.
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:history,
Track 1:think we do these things, take medicine as an example. We have these novel new drugs, et cetera. We use them and then we realize, you know, 5, 10, 20 years later, actually they had a, they had a big impact. When they were, when they were delivered, when the population consumed them. So it's a, it's a real risk and obviously we don't wanna solve one problem by creating the other.
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:other.
Track 1:So I think a great place to start on that is to just explain where you guys are at when it comes to commercializing your carbon dioxide removal activities. Where you've been successful and where you've had challenges and what you are doing to come through those challenges. And really, the objective there that I, that I really want us to uncover is
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:is
Track 1:can people, whether they're investors or other startup founders, take insights away from this so that they can also bring their
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:bring their
Track 1:technologies to market quicker. They can commercialize them. So ultimately as a society, we can all start removing carbon dioxide faster. And if we, if one of us wins, then I believe we'll all win.
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:I, I think the best way to build off of that question and set of comments is to really highlight that there's some macroeconomic and microeconomic elements here that are at play that will be a factor for all CDR. All MRV companies, CDR being carbon dioxide removal, and MRV, what you were mentioning, measurement, reporting and validation. This is generally a, a new marketplace. It's been getting bigger and bigger, especially in the last two years, but it's also got a decent amount of history that we also have to overcome. For better or for worse. You know, there were carbon offset credits for 15 or 20 years. There have been differing registries that put out various methods that differing companies, either an individual company or a group of companies can utilize to then. Create transactions in the space. So there's some skeletal framework some of which is useful to move forward. And some of it I think there's a quite a few companies that are wanting to either move away from or see what's new and see how that new sort of set of entities and new sets of purchasers that are really hitting the marketplace in the last 18 months in particular can really drive new non-organic, combined with organic growth. I think in terms of challenges, no matter what company you're with these macroeconomic concerns are something that especially investors take seriously. And I think the companies do as well. You know, we're, we're going to have to have ways of creating contracts that purchasers and buyers can come together with on that work for all parties involved. You know, one thing that, that I'm really happy with my company is we have a great. Corporate attorney and I think one thing that that has been holding the market back in particular is how do you write a good contract and one where a purchaser and a buyer can agree to terms in an understanding that is actually not basic, but can take into account a lot of parameters where it can either be based on delivery or. Who you want your third party verifier through. And to me that's one of the ways that we'll really be able to catalyze the industry, utilizing the right contracts. And I think a lot of it is really in documentation and making sure people can utilize that mis messaging because we need a level of trust, we need a level of understanding and commitment here. And if you don't have the right documentation to be able to do that, I think a lot of potential purchasers are gonna. Stay away until that becomes more streamlined. And that's one of the reasons we've been able to obtain, I think two customers so far. And while we're in discussions with at least one more by year end in terms of success, that I would say that that's really been helping us with, at least on the sales side in, in doing it that way, but. Getting to your MRV piece. I think if we look at a high level, and not just looking at my company, but I think at a bigger picture, that would be an interesting point to address. You know, is it an engineering solution or is it a natural systems solution in terms of are we augmenting or expanding or optimizing some type of natural process on the planet? And depending on if it's an engineering solution or the ladder. Natural then I think that is a big factor in how you put the MRV together, you know, an engineering solution. You can write up a series of equations, you can put together a systematic approach that could be straightforward because of that particular process and that can lead to something. But In the world we live in, it's generally an open system. You know, winds come and go. Wave heights, increase wave heights, decrease the storm. May be here or storm may be there. Weather patterns change. One place that might be inundated with with rain might become a drought. You know that that's the reality of life, regardless of what it is that we can do. And so when we're coming up with the right M RV strategy, we have to make sure that open system conditions mixed with a couple of fairly closed conditions based on what the technology is or where that company's working, are all incorporated properly into the system at play. And then only then can we really get to the true MRV. You know, another piece that I really like to emphasize, and one of the reasons we've really been pushing Liliana the way that we have is. If you go to the academic side with all the universities that are out there, there's been a phenomenal amount of publications and research and work that have been put out in the last 50 or or 70 years yet because the market's still na, NASA new, a lot of that isn't yet properly integrated. I. Or as integrated as it as it should be. And we're here to try to push a lot of that knowledge further. To say that, Hey, we know a lot more than what the markets have already in incorporated. How can we push this further and faster so that we can get the market to get to that point of more carbon removal? In a way that everybody can, can have that believability and accountability, because I think until our society as a whole believes that the companies that are involved in doing this are not only doing it for just because they want to, but it, it's actually working. And they can be held accountable for good measures. That's really what it's gonna take to get the, the industry to a billion tons, if not more, five, 10 billion tons of, of of carbon removal credit trades per year. So hopefully that addresses the, the, the points. There's a lot of different caveats and twists we can focus in on, but to me that that's a, a good way to, to, to focus.
Track 1:Yeah, for sure. And I, and I think what's probably worth doing there to credentialize the problem is to recap that to date, and I'm going off numbers here from Frontier Climate, which is that kind of corporate coalition, so to speak of, of buyers, of climate, of carbon credits. I think they estimate that there's been about 10,000 tons of removal to date. The total challenge that we'll have in place by 2050 will be 3.8 billion tons.
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:tons.
Track 1:So if you take that
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:that
Track 1:kind of how much we need to scale is vast and, and I think as you referenced there, you know, some, certainly there's some, there are different pathways to get there. And whilst there are a lot of novel approaches, you know, we need to not think about how do we capture a ton or a hundred tons or
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:or
Track 1:tons, you know, if we've gotta get to 3.8 billion. You know, it's how do we scale solutions that can get to the millions of tons per year?'cause even that, frankly is, is barely scratching the surface. Now clearly you think at Liliana you are able to to move that, that needle,
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:needle,
Track 1:but I also want to reference some of Frontiers kind of taxonomy, so to speak, when it looks at how it focuses on the scalability and the permanence of solutions. Because I think.
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:think
Track 1:When we think of MRV as a process, we're talking about the,
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:talking
Track 1:you know, the, the measurement, the reporting, the verification, et cetera. I'm sure even if you're not anything to do with carbon dioxide removal, you can understand what those words mean.
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:mean.
Track 1:But if we dig into some of those real challenges, when you think about how you as an innovative startup with a new solution really gets that MRV, you know, how do you measure, how do you report on it? How do you verify on it? I think when we dig into to some of the, those taxonomies, it will really help to explain some of the challenges. And I think if I may, I'm, I'm not gonna give the entire taxonomy, but I'm just gonna focus here as to what my perceived reads of the of the challenges facing Liliana, which is that,
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:is
Track 1:you know, how do you demonstrate the durability. Of this. So when, so when Lillian is phytoplankton captures some carbon sinks to the bottom of the ocean,
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:the ocean,
Track 1:you know, how do we know that that plankton is capturing that carbon for say, a thousand years? And then I think the other challenge is how do you verify there that say one unit, so to speak, of phytoplankton has captured x number of units of, of carbon, whatever those units are, doesn't really matter. The point is more how do we know that when something is. Potentially thousands of meters, thousands of feet below the surface. How do we know
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:do we know
Track 1:that amount of carbon is there and how do we know that amount of carbon is gonna stay there
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:there
Track 1:for a thousand years? Clearly we don't have a thousand years to wait to go back and say, yep, that gram of carbon is still down there.
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:there.
Track 1:So how do you approach some of those challenges when it comes to.
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:to
Track 1:of carbon or grant organizations or advanced market mechanisms like Frontier. I found this on the web, oh, sorry. Saying, prove to us that this is a measurable or portable and a verifiable solution.
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:solution. Yeah.
Track 1:I.
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:there's two parts to that commentary. The first one is really the scalability and the permanence and how big the market is relative to the commentary with Frontier. You know, a good source of information that I like going to is a website that's cdr. FYI, CDR R standing for carbon dioxide
Track 1:Mm-Hmm.
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:FYI, for your information. And one of the things that it's really been highlighting is that since 2021 the marketplace has really grown fast and much, much faster than any time prior to that from 20 20 21 to 2022. Don't quote the exact numbers, but I think at least. 10 x fold increase in the amount, number of transactions took place just year on year. And then from 2022 to 2023, I think we're approaching a 20 x additional growth year on year again. And so from just 21 to 23 that the amount of growth is phenomenal. But you'll also notice, like you mentioned, 10,000 delivered. One of the things that's emphasized there is I think that's actually one of the bigger choke points in the marketplace. Right now, if you look at a website like that, they've been able to e emphasize that at least 5 million tons have been sold. They do the best that they can to try to get as many transactions in place, but because the market's not like a, a traditional commodity like a corn or soybean, they can't get each and every transaction. So there's definitely a lot more than, than what's on there. 3% or less than 3%, something like 2.8% of that carbon has been delivered. So if you do the, if you do that math, they claim it's, you know, 1 30, 1 40, 150,000 tons or so have been delivered. And I think until that percent of deliveries increases substantially, that's another piece that I think will enable even more purchasers to, to, to join the marketplace now. You mentioned specifically in relation to Liliana, and this goes back to what we know about the academic realm. You know, on the academic side, there's a lot of oceanographic work that's been done. Data collection. If you look at what we used to call the Ocean Drilling Program, which I believe is now called the Ocean Discovery Drilling Program, or not drilling Ocean Discovery program, internet Integrated Ocean. Discovery program is what I mean. Something like 6,000 or 7,000 sites have been drilled around the, the, our world's oceans and the Indian Ocean, the Pacific Ocean, the Atlantic Ocean, and in between. And in the last 15 or so years, something like 20% of the mandate is just on the bio geochemical and the biological activity in the sediments. That's a wealth of information. That's a wealth of knowledge that we can incorporate into our understanding of how can we back. Determine or future determine how permanent our solution is, or will that carbon be there for a thousand or 10,000 or a million years? Will it get into geological storage and marine sediments? And then a fundamental question is, are marine sediments a good place for carbon to be stored? And I think that's another really critical piece to also highlight because. a geological perspective, being a geologist myself, you know, if you look at where almost all the oil and gas comes from, where a lot of the mines that we get a lot of materials for our infrastructure, manufacturing processes and just how humans live. Like even concrete formation, it all comes from marine sediments. And so until we are able to clearly specify that marine sediments are a very useful lo. Area for scalable carbon removal. That's what's really gonna help catalyze and increase the size of this, this marketplace. Those that are in oil and gas are, are well versed in this because phytoplankton remains will depending on the type of phytoplankton, will create oil or will create gas. But not all phytoplankton oil because there's different compositions. But if you look at traditional oceanographic techniques, Liliana in integrates a number of these from say, sediment traps, to simply taking shallow course of the sediment to look at what the carbon content is and what the composition of that material is, and then going back and doing it repetitively over a certain time duration. And then that's really what helps determine. Not only that, in order for this to work, you need to determine the before, the during, and the after sort of information to then say that, well, if a company like mine is not operating, what is the background composition of the sediments? And so it's good to have that. That's one of the things that we do. And then during that work that'll also strengthen. how does it change and what is that delta? And then it's that delta between before versus during versus after. That leads to the actual determination of the, the volume of carbon and how much will, will, will still be there. You also wanna do it inside and outside of the areas or else you're not gonna get a good set of constraints. And so I think that's really the, the main points to address here.
Track 1:so you mentioned a minute or two back there that until. What was the key word there? You know, until you've been able to answer these questions, for example, about the quality and the quantity of carbon within that kind of
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:that
Track 1:marine, ocean floor sediment, you know, you, you're not gonna be able to answer those questions, but
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:But
Track 1:I think the challenge is those questions are being asked today. People clearly want to capture carbon today. People want to pay for it today. But they need to know, if I spend this dollar with this solution, you know, how much is that solution gonna cost me? And from an impact and an additionality point of view, how much carbon are we capturing here? So, you know, can we, do you think we can answer those questions today?
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:Mm-Hmm.
Track 1:And if we can't answer them perfectly, how are we answering them?
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:Yeah, we definitely can. And with a lot of those sites that have been targeted to core and to better understand, and also just all the modeling work that's been done out there, a lot of that academic side just needs to be integrated better into the carbon marketplace. And that's one of the key elements that, that we at lilana are addressing right now. Of different depositional settings, either shallow. Deep in the Bissell ocean or self shelf to slope have been studied extensively. And we can definitively specify that carbon, especially organic carbon, accumulates almost everywhere in the world's oceans and in some places. Instead of it being organic carbon, it's inorganic carbon. That is, unless you get below a concept called the calcite compensation depth, and then the carbon tends to, especially the inorganic, gets destroyed, and then you're left with some red clays, but that's a very small portion of the world's ocean. Something like 10%. And so if we look at it this way, almost 90. Percent plus or minus few percentages. I think it's higher than that, but at least 90% is where carbon in general accumulates in our oceans. It's just what is the concentration of that carbon? If you look off the say Peru margin where you get a lot of upwelling in a ideal location for natural carbon sequestration without any human involvement, the total organic carbon content to those sediments, right there are something like 13, 15 or 17% that's remarkably high for those that are not familiar with this type of data. And so we already. Can address that in a consistent manner. Understanding how the currents work, what the chemistry of the water is, and how the different ocean graphic elements, inter interweave and interplay is really the best way to, to, to do that. If we understand where water's down well or where water's up, well, what is the nutrient cycling in, in those little regions or large regions, depending on the scale and context that's being addressed or we, we need to know, that's all. Data that's readily available at our, at our fingertips.
Track 1:But you mentioned that it's readily available, but also if we were to take
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:to take
Track 1:any carbon removal
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:removal
Track 1:accelerator program or mechanism, there's a large number of applicants. Typically compared to the number of successful grant winners or kind of pre-purchase, you know, contractees. So clearly there's a quality question there. You know, are, are some of these startups quite ready for it? Do they need to have more to prove? Do they need to do more work in terms of process? But there are still large questions being asked, which it sounds like from what you are saying, the academic or some of the, the, the research is there to prove it.
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:prove
Track 1:But it isn't yet being fully integrated into the, the commercial or at least the, the presentation of that solution when it comes to,
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:To,
Track 1:we get you as an advanced pre purchaser to actually buy this? Because clearly they're not yet buying the science or, or at least the application of the science. So where is that research, that academic work being lost in translation when it comes to the technical review?
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:review
Track 1:And verification of some of these CDR solutions.
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:I mean, I think it depends on what the solution is, where you're working and what exactly is necessary to know, to be able to show that that technology's working. There's a dependency there on the technology because not all technologies are the same. There's quite large differences on a, on a company by company. Or focus point to focus point. And, and I mean what we've done here internally to Liliana is we've come up with our own MRV strategy that integrates multiple data sources in a way that leads to direct measurements. I. That is unusual for most CDR companies in the ocean. That's also data rich. And so because it's data rich, we can back it up with a lot of differing data sets that can overlay on top of each other to really prove out and show to quite effectively what it is that, that we're able. To do. I think that's a, a key point to, to really address. You know, I think a lot of oversight is happening because people make a lot of assumptions or people make a lot of models or groups are coming up with, well, what is the percent degradation here, or percent degradation there without citing the right documentation. And so to me, you need to be grounded in the latest science. You want a solution that's modular. And scalable so that you can put a number of different either buoys or some type of data source locality for the sensors that you want to utilize for your data collection. Or maybe you want it to be mobile or some integration of all that, and that that can all be incorporated into the right strategy. But at the same time, you need it to be scientifically. And statistically valid. And so that, that's all incorporated in, in, in that regard. You know, as a company at Liliana, there's only so much we can do individually. But the right thing here is to bring a lot more minds together that can have that much more. much perspective so we can do more for the greater good and make sure that additional folks are encouraging sort of the broader integration of, of what has already been transpired. See, I think what, what's happened previously is a lot of the data and a lot of the work that's been done was not in the concept of CDR or context of CDR. Really, it was
Track 1:Yeah.
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:a certain element. And so it's really, how do you bring.
Track 1:Mm-Hmm.
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:point together with that point, together with another point. And, and that's really where we're at in terms of one of the challenges that all these companies face. And so that, that's, to me, that's more how data rich do you want it to be? Not, not will it work assuming that the technology that's being addressed there is actually sound and justifiable similar to what it is that we do.
Track 1:Yeah,
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:Yeah.
Track 1:I suppose we're asking a lot here of CDR startups.
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:startups,
Track 1:Most purely commercial startups, you ask them to develop, you know, their, their MVP, right? Do you want them to, to bring it to market? See if their initial kind of customers are gonna buy it.
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:And
Track 1:And you say, tests, iterate and learn.
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:and there,
Track 1:Whereas what we're asking of CDR startups is we need to develop a product. A process, a solution, and we need you to not necessarily go and find the customers because some of those customers already exist and they're, they're clear. They're kind of saying, look, we'll buy anything as long as it meets these standards. However, meeting those standards means we need to do, as you were saying, that we need to do data analysis. We need to go and get statistically valid data. And some of that data, you know, we're not just saying, Hey, let's go and conduct some customer interviews, or Let's go and conduct a stress test, or any other sort of kind of mechanical engineering based
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:based
Track 1:that you might do more in the hardware space. We're asking them to prove things like durability. And to quantify the potential risks around unintended consequences that may happen in very complex ecospheres
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:EPRs
Track 1:and ecosystems. Often in, if we take the ocean as an example in pretty hostile environments, you know, you ask anyone in the marine industry
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:industry.
Track 1:all tell you the weather, the salt,
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:Assault,
Track 1:know, the, the elements, you know, make operating in marine environments very difficult, very costly. Yet we're asking these startups. To go and not only develop a solution and sell it, but actually can you sell it whilst also quantifying the, the potential, the current and potential risks today and over the next thousand years, you know, and all of those impacts, which we don't really ask of any other set of startups or
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:or,
Track 1:you know,
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:you
Track 1:producers, I would argue, but we're asking it of these startups. I just wonder what your thought is
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:is
Track 1:think about how that.
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:that
Track 1:That hill is really much steeper when it comes to CDR compared to to many others.
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:I think you, you're bringing up an excellent point there, and that's not something an individual company can really get off the ground by itself. I completely agree with the fact that CDR companies are being asked to do quite a bit. One point that I think would also be good to add to this discussion though is that by testing, iterating, and learning. You know, the oceans are changing really fast right in front of us, and we're seeing large differences in fisheries, or we're looking at how differing either shallow or deep water currents have been changing. A good example is something like 10 or 15 or five or so years ago, I think 10 or 15 years ago, just offshore of San Diego a warm sort of intermediate water body started showing up and brought with it large squid. And so all of a sudden local people started fishing for these large squid that. Weren't there 30 or 40 years ago. And so inevitably, companies that work in the oceans in particular need to have the insight and the understanding that we will need to iterate. You're not gonna want to have a specific methodology. That's gonna be pretty much the test of time because we know it's an open system. And that's earlier on the podcast when I was mentioning we need to make sure we understand how to define an open system. That's really largely what what I also mean but. Your point also about trying to do pre-sales and trying to do a lot more to get companies off the ground, while some of this is also being figured out, it is is a limiting factor in variable. And I think that's partially why certain methodologies that have been around for longer, not to say they're better or worse are more at least considered reliable to some of the purchases that are out there and why a larger portion. Of certain types of CDRI think have received a larger amount of the purchasing power to date. That doesn't mean that's going to remain the case moving forward. It just means that some technologies because more people are either familiar with it or there's a concept of fomo, like fear of missing out, like. What is your kelp investment or what is your kelp investment or have you invested in direct or capture if you're in the CDR space? Those are the types of questions that are being addressed because those are some of the technologies that people, I think, at least from a name recognition perspective, are more familiar with. But that doesn't make them better. It doesn't mean that they're the right ones to, to pick and choose from, from a much broader list of what's really hitting the marketplace that we have today. And I think until. There's even more time that's passed where we can familiarize ourself with the, the a, a broader list of names and approaches to CDR than then we're gonna see a, a, a bigger array of purchasing in terms of what is the different types of tech purchasers will, will be interested in. So I think there's a couple of different elements here. In addition to that, we can take a lot of lessons learned from the commodities industry that's already there. If you look at the Chicago Mercantile Exchange, if you look at food produce like. Coffee or soybeans or corn. And we look at the pricing power and how that changes day to day, week to week, month to month, even natural gas and, and crude. How, how those markets tr act and operate. I think we can take a lot of lessons learned from, from how they. Got off. They've been around for a long time, but at some point, CDR R is gonna be around for a long time too. And if we look at the fact that there are different qualities of oil that are out there, how do we take into account premiums or discounts based on those oils? And I think we're eventually going to be, I. Needing to do that in order to compare each of the different types of technologies that we have in the CDR space. And to me that's really the right approach to, to, to utilize. And one of the things that we've been trying to integrate into the contracts Liliana utilizes and, and, and talks to our customers about is as, as, as well, you know, a good example is suite versus sour. Crude oil, how much sulfur is in there. And there's a discount rate that is increases as the price of oil goes up and up and up on a percentage basis. And I think a, a model of something along those lines is something that would really help the CDR industry to be able to then differentiate between different technologies. But at the same time, it's not easy. And that gets back to the M rv. How do, how, how durable are their unintended consequences with each and every one? And, and who is the one that should be making those decisions? And, and at a marketplace level, how are we all gonna be able to do something where everybody can work in tandem? And I think until some of those questions are asked, we're gonna have a couple roadblocks that the carbon markets are going to see in the future, but ideally in, at some point down the road, whether that's two years, three years, five years, all the carbon. I think should be sold at the same price point with those discount rates or premium values put on it based on the parameters we're talking about, like durability, consequences, et cetera. And, and to me it just needs to be converted into some numerical dollar value. And then that from there can be the economic basis for our future carbon market that has so much potential.
Track 1:So
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:So
Track 1:could ask you then,
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:you
Track 1:what is the one thing,
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:thing,
Track 1:what are the changes that you would like to see as the founder of A CDF startup that you think would make.
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:would make
Track 1:The journey easier for you and other startups whilst not compromising quality and the durability of the solutions here. You know what? If you could wave a magic wand, how would you
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:would
Track 1:make the market more receptive? How would you speed up innovation in the CDR space?
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:we need the market to be much less fragmented. Instead of having all these different registries and all these different methods different groups doing M rv, we need a almost A-K-P-M-G or some type of, you know, how the SEC is to the financial system. I think if we had some type of legislation and some type of oversight that comes down at the. Top of the top and, and gives that perspective and overview. I mean, it's already done in the tax industry. It's already done in financial markets already. There's a basis for it, but why can't it be done in another commodity market would be my question. And I think until we see that type of integration, where those types of entities can really push forward and enable everybody to be more. Understanding and familiar with, with the whole system at play, then I think that's really what's gonna enable a huge amount of growth until that happens. I think that's another that's, that's something could just speed things up. It's not necessary to get
Track 1:Yep.
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:say, 10 x or 20 x year on year growth, but if we really want to get to. What would lead to a meaningful volume? One thing we haven't talked about yet is what is meaningful? You know, I think a key point here is humans emit over 50 billion tons as a geologist. I know this is a crazy number, but if we remove 25 billion tons, a lot of carbon. But all that means is we still have the same amount of carbon in the system just over two years instead of one, just a multiplier of two. 25 or 50 divided by two is 25. And so from a geological perspective, you know, whether a change takes place over 10 years, a hundred years or a thousand years isn't that big of a difference. But the human lifetime is much shorter and we need to be aware of what in a year to year or decade to decade approach will be factors. And I think if we look at some of the concerns I have, you know, the, the main conclusion I had for my PhD is a warmer planet leads to an intensified hydrological cycle. More intense rainfall, longer dry seasons. And that leads to more erosion and nutrients that go down rivers, which is fundamental to Liliana and a large reason why we created this in the first place. But at the same time that can lead to unexpected outcomes, not necessarily, or consequences in general. You know, it, what if our Midwest doesn't get the water it needs for all the corn to grow? You know, we can get to un famine or we can get to food supply shortages in issues that even at our society level that are not related to CDR. The marketplace that is, can lead to even short term worse conditions than what I think a lot of people are, are weighing here. And I'm not trying to scare people. What I'm just trying to emphasize here is natural resources are should be taken. In a almost a sacred way, you know, if all of a sudden the water that we've relied on for all of the city use, like, I like to shower, I want to be clean, you know, all of a sudden if a lot of those resources were to become less predictable or if certain regions are no longer able to do that and utilize a lot of those key points of, of our day-to-day lives, then the way we know it's gonna change. And if the CDR industry can really. Enable a, a way where our planet remains more habitable, that those resources that we've relied upon and to get us to where we are today can continue then, then that is a, a way that can only benefit. are, are the way we are. And I think from a PR and messaging perspective, I think that's something that the carbon markets are missing. And I think a lot of people don't realize that a lot of the people that are in the carbon markets that wanna see'em grow, want to see the world remain habitable and want to see the world be maintained in a way that we've acco been accustomed to. And a lot of the data is pretty dire. You know, like we're not even talking about other factors like sea level rise, and we're not looking at other factors like the dissociation of methane hydrates that are. Can create massive disturbance to the way we know and there's, we can go off about all that stuff, but to stay focused, I, I just think getting back to the carbon markets, I think that the carbon markets can grow to be able to keep these other major consequences from happening, or at least pushing them down the road. It gives us more time as a society to come up with other solutions that we can then use to increase the stability of the planet and that can only be a good thing.
Track 1:Hey Ben, and that's probably a great
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:a
Track 1:note for us to end on Ben. So thank you for taking this through all of that. I really appreciate it. So if people want to find out more about the work that you're doing at Liliana, where can they reach out to you and how can they find out more?
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:they find out? You can either go to our LinkedIn page or you can find us on LinkedIn, any of our team members. You can also go to our website@www.liliana.com. We're actually in the midst of a rebranding campaign and we're also gonna be changing our website quite drastically in the coming month or two. So there will definitely be a way to contact us in one of those ways.
Track 1:Great.
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:Great,
Track 1:Ben, thank you so much for coming on. Thank you for telling us about your own story, what you've been doing at Liliana and.
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:and
Track 1:How the carbon markets and how startups are navigating the carbon markets to try and make the world a better place. I really appreciate the insights you've brought, so thank you very much for joining us.
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:us and thanks for having us. These were great questions and a really thoughtful discussion that we've had today.
Track 1:Speak you soon. Bye-Bye.
benjamin-slotnick_1_12-15-2023_104315:Bye.
Jake:Thank you for listening to
Elgato Wave:3-1:The seed.
Jake:If you'd like to find out any more information about a show with the participants or anything that we've spoken about today. Please look into the show notes on what ever platform you're watching the song or go to our website@sevengen.vc forward slash podcast to find out more. If you enjoyed this episode, then please share it with anyone who might find value in what we've talked about. And please give us a review on whichever platform you're listening to this on so that more people can discover our work and join in the conversation. I look forward to joining this journey with you on another episode very soon.